Curse

Akshara · Jun 04, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Having played a healing monk for awhile, I decided to create a warrior since most of the ones I met in PUGs were rambos with little patience... at least that's how it appeared, anyway. Now that I've been playing a warrior for awhile, I've had to readjust my initial assumption of the situation, and would like to share some points here for "ranged" attackers as to what may be going on, and as to why there may be so many impatient warriors.

Everyone complains about warriors who just rush in blindly and never wait or allow time between encounters for recharging or whatever. Well I don't do that... and it makes absolutely zero difference 90% of the time. Why? In almost every instance, the reason is because of one or more ranged party members who are either trying to be a tank, are woefully unconscious of positioning and the ranged compass meter, or who are simply impatient and "gogogo" all the time.

As a warrior, I'm just as concerned with keeping the team alive as a healing or protection prayers monk is. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, strategically speaking. So I don't rush into mobs or around corners, never leave the group, often try to position myself in bottlenecks or in places that will shield the group, always drop what I'm attacking to protect the healer when they are in serious trouble, and regularly use effective target calling or go toward the target being called as often as possible.

The approach I prefer is to stop before an encounter and use the Ctrl key to survey the situation ahead and find the most important targets, then wait for the mobs to position themselves in an arrangement which will pull the aggro toward us in the most effective manner once I move forward and become detected. If there's a way to sneak past a mob or group of mobs and then approach them from the flank or another angle to thin their numbers, then that's what I'll do instead.

In the few groups that have actually appreciated and utilized this approach, it's been extremely effective, as it has been when I take a couple of henchmen with me alone - Alesia rarely, if ever dies this way.

But here's what happens 90% of the time instead...

I'm standing there surveying the situation, or have positioned myself in a very effective defensive position in relation to the mobs, and a Ranger or Elementalist runs passed me several paces and stops... and then one of several things happens:

1) They are detected because they are too close now, and the mobs rush toward us;
2) They fire off an arrow, attack skill or spell at whatever foe is closest;
3) Their lovely pet will walk into detection range or just start attacking the nearest foe.

So to all ranged attackers, and especially to those with Beast Mastery as an attibute, here are a few things to know and understand about your friendly, neighborhood Warriors...

- If a Ranger or Elementalist would simply stay behind the warrior(s) and wait until the warrior attacks first, then start attacking immediately with their powerful spells and precision skills, things would go so much more smoothly about 99% of the time.

- If a Warrior is far enough ahead of the group when they begin their attack, most if not all of the foes will just focus their attention on them and start pounding away. If the team then runs up to attack as well, maybe one or two foes will break away, but that's usually about it. Now if the whole team rushes in right next to the Warrior, then the mob usually disperses and targets the weakest player or the healer.

- If another class rushes ahead and pulls the aggro down from a distance, it's often dispersed and chaotic, and the mob spreads out across the entire party, rushing right passed the warrior. Sometimes a mob will do this no matter what, but in many cases they won't. If a Ranger is going to pull a foe or group down, they need to use a Longbow or Flatbow and stay behind the Warrior. I don't know how many times I've asked a Ranger to pull an enemy and they run ahead and use a shortbow, then just stand there firing... that's not effective pulling.

- Most Warriors can handle having upwards of five foes pounding on them at once. Often we will use stances or spells as feints that lower our health or make us take increased damage to specifically draw aggro attention on us. We're not in jeopardy or having a problem, so unless you're another warrior then stay back. The healer knows what to do and when to do it.

- A Warrior gains adrenaline when they are being pounded on. So unlike with any other class, for us it is beneficial to be the tank because it makes our more powerful attacks charge up very quickly. When another profession continually calls or takes the aggro away from us, it's the equivalent of casting energy drain spells on our healer or elementalist or blowing up all the corpses before a necro can use them for anything.

- A pet gets underfoot of a Warrior, and can immobilize us in the heat of a battle. I'd say this happens to me 1 out of every 3 encounters when a pet is in the team. If there is more than one pet, I might as well just go sit down. Pets are great when they "join in" and support an attack in progress, or for blocking foes and protecting you, but they completely suck when they are leading the attack, or hanging around the warriors. Pets respond to their owners commands and positioning... so if your attacks are leading or ahead of the warriors, then the pets do so as well. If you're going to bring a pet into battle, be conscious of their positioning and who they are attacking.

- If the healer is being mobbed up on, drop whatever you're doing and help the healer, or look for the target call. I'll frequently sprint back to get inbetween the healer and their attackers, or try to draw their attention away, and the rest of the team just keeps running forward like nothing's going on! Healers are not tanks, and if they're healing themselves then they're not healing you.

- Target calling is the coolest thing when done well. A good ranged character makes for an awesome target caller. Use SHIFT to call a target without attacking them first, then let the warrior attack them first. It really works!

Believe me when I say that as a warrior this kind of stuff is extremely frustrating to deal with all the time. Frankly, when I'm on a mission and the group just doesn't care and rushes from encounter to encounter with no thought of tactics or positioning.. or after about the 50th time that stupid pet has gotten me stuck to where I can't move or attack... it becomes very unenjoyable and I check out mentally (I never leave a group though), and just start attacking the nearest enemy and rushing forward all the time.

And that may be why there are so many impatient warriors who rush from encounter to encounter all the time. After two or three missions where I'm being completely ignored and disregarded by my team, I simply stop caring and begin to act like one of those warriors I used to dislike so much.

I read all these threads about healers needing respect, and how warriors are just meat shields and noobs who rush around with no regard for their teams. Well Warrior is a powerful class that offers a lot to a team. It's as difficult to get through a mission without a Warrior as it is to get through without a healer. And it seems like most players just don't get it... they don't want a rambo warrior in their team, but when the warrior isn't a rambo they don't know what to do and either criticize him for being slow or take it upon themselves to be the rambo instead.

There's no need to be so close when you have ranged weapons and spells... why not utilize the range that you have? Attack second, not first... if you attack first, they are going to attack you, which places added stress on the healers since you will take more damage than me. Take responsibility for your pets... you don't have to feed them or take them on a walk, so the least you could do is keep them from getting underfoot and blocking your warrior teammate. If you're pulling a group or foe toward the team, then kindly get out of the way afterwards.

Just my two cents. And I apologize if my frustration comes through, because it is frustrating.

Axehilt · Jun 05, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Probably the biggest tip absent from the post is that you can get rid of aggro by running right past your warrior with the monster in tow - sometimes the monster pathfinds around the warrior, but eventually it should give up the chase and start hitting the warrior (I believe it's even more likely when the mob has a Slow effect on it, since it figures it can't catch the mobile player and goes for the stationary warrior instead.)

Especially in some of the high level missions, scraping off your aggro onto the Warrior is a really important thing to do.

The other major tip is that Warriors themselves are a melee ranged class - and this means that any pulling of ranged monsters needs to drag those ranged mobs far enough that when your Warrior runs up to whack it he doesn't aggro another entire group.

I haven't really seen pets screw up Warriors too much - and while playing a Warrior myself I've never gotten irrevocably stuck in the middle of a fight. In fact, when running minion builds on my Necromancer it noticeably helps absorb a ton of damage for the entire party.

buggsy · Jun 05, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

My team once had a MONK in FISSURE aggroing things cause he was impatient with the rest of us, and, "He had been here before and, "Knows what to do."."

Rezzed him twice with vengeance.

what a properly named spell.

Akshara · Jun 05, 2005, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

you can get rid of aggro by running right past your warrior with the monster in tow - sometimes the monster pathfinds around the warrior, but eventually it should give up the chase and start hitting the warrior

And a prescient warrior, if they recognize one doing this, may enable a stance or skill that attracts that monster more effectively.

Quote:

any pulling of ranged monsters needs to drag those ranged mobs far enough that when your Warrior runs up to whack it he doesn't aggro another entire group.

This is a really good point. Our detection range is such that if we move in to attack, it can easily attract another group. I've noticed certain mobs that seem to group together in a manner that encourages this. It's one of the reasons a ranger with a longbow standing behind the warrior can be really helpful, as they come to us and not the other way around.

Quote:

when running minion builds on my Necromancer it noticeably helps absorb a ton of damage for the entire party.

My secondary is Necro, and I've rarely if ever had a problem with either my minions or those of another Necro in the group. It's specifically with pets... and generally only those pets whose owners run ahead and stay on the front line. If their owners stay back further, or attack after I've begun, then the pets seem to compliment the attacking and blocking, rather than get in the way.

But man, the other night I was having such an issue with pets blocking me every which way (there were three in the group), or getting in between me and the target so I would just stand there and not attack. I'd have to change targets, or turn and run around to get them from behind.

Last night I got stuck between two pets for a good thirty seconds, and literally couldn't move any direction besides turning in a circle. Even hitting Sprint and targeting a distant opponent, I'd just stand there. This kind of thing happens so frequently that I've even considered posting, "LFG - no pets" when I go on missions.

Aranador · Jun 05, 2005, 10:44 AM // 10:44

I am melee ranger/warrior with a pet.

My own pet sometimes blocks me from moving !

Luckilly I know this may happen and immediately adjust for it. Also - as melee ranger - my pet is pretty much always alongside me, so at least it is usually only bothering me.

As for necro minions - when they get up a good swarm - it is very hard to move :P But so it is for the baddies as well.

Yamat · Jun 06, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Akshara

I really enjoyed your post, and hope lots of people see it, because many of the items you point out have also been driving me nuts lately... however,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

- Target calling is the coolest thing when done well. A good ranged character makes for an awesome target caller.

Do you really want a ranged character calling targets? The ranger/caster at the back might call the closest target, instead of the one that previously took AoE damage from standing next to the warrior while he pounded on the mob, and worse, might cause the warriors to run back to the casters (when they press "T"), pulling the mob with them. In my PvE experience (NOT PvP), the warrior should call, that way you keep focused on the mob around the warrior and pick up stragglers at the end. Gives opportunity for AoEs for the max time too...

Of course, the ranger/caster caller could carefully pick one next to the warrior, but nothing beats the speed of "C-SPACE, CTRL-SPACE".

Red Locust · Jun 06, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Well, I agree with the aggro control. In UW and Fissure, it makes my life as a monk much easier if the tanks took all the hits and people properly controlled aggro. A couple tanks are infinitely easier to keep alive than many ele's and rangers with a big bad bull right in their face. Yet most people don't have the common sense to backup and lose the enemy on a warrior. That's why no-dp rezzes like vengeance and unyielding aura are sometimes essential.

Akshara · Jun 06, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Do you really want a ranged character calling targets? The ranger/caster at the back might call the closest target, instead of the one that previously took AoE damage from standing next to the warrior while he pounded on the mob, and worse, might cause the warriors to run back to the casters (when they press "T"), pulling the mob with them. In my PvE experience (NOT PvP), the warrior should call, that way you keep focused on the mob around the warrior and pick up stragglers at the end. Gives opportunity for AoEs for the max time too...

I see what you're saying here for sure, and have been the target caller several times when there wasn't one. But for me, I've found it to be much more difficult to be a really effective caller because I'm in the middle of the fray, focusing on what's immediately around me, and not really able to get a complete overvwiew of the battle while it's going on.

On the other hand, a good Ranger who really knows how to use the character well has the capability of seeing the larger context of the battlefield, and where things are most needed. For example, there may be a healer in the back of the mob making everyone's job difficult, or a few may have broken away to gang up on our healer. When I'm in the middle of several foes, or am positioned in a way to block opponents or soak up damage, then it's hard for me to see those kind of things going on. Usually the only time I know if our healer is being attacked is if I see his/her health bar spike up and down a couple of times very quickly. Then I'll break away and run back.

Imo, the Ranger is the most effective party member for target calling. Especially if we stop and discuss a tactical approach beforehand within the group, or if they are good at using Shift+Cntrl to call without attacking. They can stand back and call a target, and when they see that target close to being taken down, switch to another and call it next, moving quickly through the mob to help the warriors take down foes with a high priority. Often times, in my experience, the closest target to me is more of a distraction to keep me away from the real target, or at the edge of a mob rather than in the center of them (best for aoe attacks),so if I just switch to them or call the nearest foe as a target it's not necessarily the most effective strategy. Plus if I get blocked by intermediary targets, which often happens when I"m running to a target that's in the back, everyone else can stay focused on the main one while I take out the blockers.

I played in one group with a high level Ranger who was really good at this. He did exactly as I describe... we would agree upon the first target to take out and he used shift+cntrl to target without attacking first; then as that foe's health got low enough for me to finish them easily, he would switch to the next target for the rest of the group to focus on, so we always had a leading target called with no dead air. He would also choose targets positioned in the middle of groups, rather on the edges, which made it much easier to take them all down with the party's aoe attacks (I use Mark of Pain a lot to do shadow damage on surrounding foes). He stayed back and used preparations to add condition damage to the target area. It was really effective.

The other night we had a Mesmer who did the calling, and that actually worked out pretty well too. I hadn't experienced that before, but it seemed like a good fit for a Mesmer character, since they are really watching cloesly as to what's going on and to who is the most dangerous opponent in a group.

Yamat · Jun 06, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

Often times, in my experience, the closest target to me is more of a distraction to keep me away from the real target, or at the edge of a mob rather than in the center of them (best for aoe attacks), so if I just switch to them or call the nearest foe as a target it's not necessarily the most effective strategy. Plus if I get blocked by intermediary targets, which often happens when I"m running to a target that's in the back, everyone else can stay focused on the main one while I take out the blockers.

Great points... thanks.

Recently I'd been acting as backup targeter if the primary went down or needed a 5 second "rest" between mobs to fix enchantments/heal etc, but the points you make here seem sound so I'll start to offer myself up as primary and see how things go.

Akshara · Jun 06, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Of course, the ranger/caster caller could carefully pick one next to the warrior, but nothing beats the speed of "C-SPACE, CTRL-SPACE".

I've got my skills mapped to 1-8 on the Numpad, and have 0 assigned to "T" or to the target being called, the decimal assigned to closest target, the Enter key assigned to "lft-cntrl" for target calling, and the remaining keys assigned to my weapon slots to switch quickly. So in my case, it's actually faster to just hit '0' and move to the next target.

To call close targets I just hit Dec+Enter+Space... but to call the next target while I'm still attacking the previous one, I have to do LftShift+Dec+Enter+Space, which isn't easy. Farther targets or those not next to me require moving my hand to the mouse. Getting to the healer is easy, since I just press the corresponding number key with my left hand for his/her slot, Sprint to them and target call the closest foe.

I tend to favor using my left hand for movement and party selection only, and my right hand for all the attacking, targetting and weapon switching.

Akshara · Jun 06, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

To add to that post, when I play my healer I switch the Numpad keys to Party Selection, since that's the priority. There may be a way to arrange the key layout for target calling specifically, that's more effective as a whole... like mapping all of the targetting functions to the Numpad keys or something similar.

Zenos · Jun 06, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

When I'm in the middle of several foes, or am positioned in a way to block opponents or soak up damage, then it's hard for me to see those kind of things going on. Usually the only time I know if our healer is being attacked is if I see his/her health bar spike up and down a couple of times very quickly. Then I'll break away and run back.

The only problem with this is that when you run back to your healer you bring the other mobs back to the healer. Then you have every mob attacking the healer. If it is just one or two mobs on the healer then let someone else take the agro. If it is a bunch then go back to the healer and get as many off as possible.

Yamat · Jun 06, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenos

The only problem with this is that when you run back to your healer you bring the other mobs back to the healer. Then you have every mob attacking the healer. If it is just one or two mobs on the healer then let someone else take the agro. If it is a bunch then go back to the healer and get as many off as possible.

Too true... also means that whoever the primary caller is cannot change to support removing the mobs from the healer (unless of course things are getting desparate), as you need to keep calling the primary targets...

Akshara · Jun 07, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

The only problem with this is that when you run back to your healer you bring the other mobs back to the healer. Then you have every mob attacking the healer. If it is just one or two mobs on the healer then let someone else take the agro. If it is a bunch then go back to the healer and get as many off as possible.

This is something to be aware of for sure, and if I'm being swarmed I'll stay put. Yet sometimes it's necessary, like if the healer is in a lot of trouble or being ganged up on. Many times the foes I'm focusing on when that kind of thing happens are pretty close to death anyway, so if they follow me back I can take them out vicariously with an aoe attack, like cyclone axe or mark of death, while turning my attention to the healer's attacker. I've also had it happen before where when I run back and can get the aggro off of them and onto me, then they are able to run or move away without being followed. It means the mob is much larger around me now, but I'd generally rather die and have the healer make it than the other way around, since I don't carry a res.

Quote:

Too true... also means that whoever the primary caller is cannot change to support removing the mobs from the healer (unless of course things are getting desparate), as you need to keep calling the primary targets...

In my opinion, if the healer is about to die or under major stress, then their attackers become the primary target, regardless of who the current target is on. At least that's how I see it. If there's more than one healer, or a res signet in the group, then it's not such a big deal. But I've been in several failed missions where the healer and the res carrier died, which pretty much ended things right there.

LadyAluna · Jun 10, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

As a Warrior/Ranger I deal with these issues every other group. I just wanted to commend you for such an excellent post. Every greivance you mentioned has been one I have also dealt with many times...

Of course the tragic part of this is that anyone who is bothering to read the Guild Wars Guru strategy forum is probably NOT the kind of clueless teammate who could most benefit from reading this post.

Epinephrine · Jun 10, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Cute. Warriors shouldn't pull though, that's not their job, nor should they call.

Your statement:

Quote:

- If a Ranger or Elementalist would simply stay behind the warrior(s) and wait until the warrior attacks first, then start attacking immediately with their powerful spells and precision skills, things would go so much more smoothly about 99% of the time.

might be true in some instances, but do you see the way that group that was nicely bunched spread out as it ran? That's a wasted AoE. I had this issue last night; nearly all the groups we met consisted of mixed ranged/melee types, but they are nicely grouped to start with. I'd select one in the middle, having made sure to get ahead of the warrior who keeps ruining everything, and announce "I am using Shadow of Fear on White Mantle Seeker" for example - at which point, instead of waiting for the spell to resolve, the warrior immediately senses that he could somehow mess things up, so runs into aggro, scattering the group so that my curse hits one (1) of the four (4) that it would have hit - thanks for cutting my curse by 75%. He then gets obsessed with yelling out targets he can see, while I have a great view from where I am, and can see all the healthbars, so it's up to me to try to direct the attacks away from the most convenient target for the warrior to the enemy who actually needs targetting.

I respect warriors, but they don't serve well as pullers, and they don't serve well as callers. Once my spell has gone off (and it is called, so it should be easy to understand), affecting the group, then you start your charge to intercept. And don't go for the abbot I have called; that's for the direct damage guys - intercept the meleer heading for our Monk. But no, the warrior thinks he should be the damage delivery system, when we'll manage fine without him - in fact, if you get the guy who attacked the monk, it means I don't have to call a hit on that target, pulling everyone's fire back to save Monk-boy and preserve healing for the group.

Warriors who know what to do are great. You have the unenviable job of taking a beating, and you need to think to get foes positioned right. Remember that you are allowed to move, even when fighting. Falling back a few feet to get the guys grouped a bit better in front of you and to get into the Well of Blood that just went up is actually a good move - grouping them more tightly helps AoE from the rest of the team - while your cyclone axe may well hit all of them, the Mesmer's Chaos storm or other skills like Throw Dirt will work better if you get them all lined up - after all, you want them weakened/blind/slowed as much as anyone does.

Myodato · Jun 10, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I don't mind warriors running ahead - that's where they should be. What I do mind though, is those that charge straight into combat, rather than just into aggro range.

Get close enough to draw attention, wait for them to start pounding (on the person you want them to!), then let the team pull the trigger.

When you're using spells such as healing seed and protective spirit, who gets the aggro is very important. A mad random charge just to start dealing damage a few seconds faster (this applies to ele's too) can ruin it for the entire team.

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 10, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

A very interesting post that started a very nice discussion. Thanks Akshara.

I fully agree, as a warrior, that my main concern is the whole group survival. I mainly play with a couple of human players + henchmen (usually Alesia, Orion...). Although I do play with a monk henchman and monk secondary players, I am the one apologizing if I let a monster throught and that one was able to get a low armoured caster down. I even apologize to Alesia..

I think my job is that noone goes bothering them in melee. So I try to intercept ennemy warriors the best I can, and I think the OP does a good job describing how to do that.
I'd say

As far as calling target goes.... I am a strong believer that calling target is an elementalist/ spike dmg thingy (ok, I am going overboard a bit

). Some classes/builds are more effective if they switch targets all the time and condition/hex/DoT/counter them in (not so)random orders.
As my job is getting beaten down + getting nasty critters off healers/elementalist/mesmer back, unless the critter group composition requires dealing with one target first, I usually don't care much about the called target.
If I were playing a warrior with "quick death" skills trying to get maximum damage fast, I guess I'd try to follow the called target, get it down as fast as possible and so on.
The warrior build shall reflect that kind of priority/ strategy.
A warrior/ necro looking for quick assassination might take some blood life sucking skills.... A bodyguard minded warrior/necro would be better off taking Shadow of Fear.
A warrior / ele (water) looking for DPS would conjure frost. A bodyguard would go for Frozen Burst... Or a ward... Well, you got the idea.

An important point in PvE if playing with Henchmen is understanding who the Henchmen are following. If possible, the target caller shall be the one that henchmen are following, and the puller shall be someone else. And puller shall not call target while pulling.

Epinephrine, I think that for a warrior to attack first is NOT to call the target... It's to be sure all the critters want to get him first.

1st attack is different from calling target. the best, as pointed, is to move in agro range; usually they come all by themselves

And then attacking the ones that are not going direct at me...

Louis,

Yamat · Jun 10, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quick question... is the range of a flatbow/longbow further than that of an ele spell such as meteor shower or fire storm?

That could severely affect pulling... and as Epinephrine mentioned, completely screw up AoEs... maybe to ensure preservation of the AoE, those players with them (Ele, Necro... and to a certain extent Mesmer) should be the target callers, probably in that order?

Epinephrine · Jun 10, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Quick question... is the range of a flatbow/longbow further than that of an ele spell such as meteor shower or fire storm?

That could severely affect pulling... and as Epinephrine mentioned, completely screw up AoEs... maybe to ensure preservation of the AoE, those players with them (Ele, Necro... and to a certain extent Mesmer) should be the target callers, probably in that order?

Longbow is longer range.

Mesmers overall are not as good callers, as they spend their time focused on non-targeted creatures quite often, disrupting spells and such; that's my experience. An elementalist with direct damage might be a good choice, as is a blood necro or non-minion necro; minion necros are pretty busy most of the time.

Opening AoE's can be great vs groups that clump up, and timing them to go off together can be really useful; I use vent even in PvE and can time my opening with the elementalist - once the first AoE hits it is time to rush/draw aggro, but if you like facing weakend/injured opponents it can be handy to hit them first with the AoE. Rangers can be ok target callers if they are the damage type rangers - if they are condition rangers they are more apt to be spreading things around and not as on top of it.

Really, I have to say good job to the warriors who do their job well - I love seeing a warrior peel away and stop the rusher going after a soft target like our mesmer or monk. I think warriors (like many classes) get a bad rap for being stupid (as opposed to rangers/necros/mesmers who are simply termed useless, or the monk who gets blamed for everything) and there are good warriors out there who are more than muscle.